HP6 Ending
Jul. 20th, 2005 07:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
salienneI've been thinking about this ending... a little too much for my own good. I've surfed the web, read people's thoughts and comments, reread the ending of the book, reread parts strewn throughout, reread HP3 (that one's really just because I wanted to, not to understand the HP6 ending or anything), read spoilers, read JK Rowling interviews, and am planning on rereading certain parts of HP5. And now... a theory and me musings.
MY THEORY: Snape was in love with Lily Potter. (Just think about it... don't shoot me down right off. Give it a while to sink in. I've had this whole Snape good/evil thing sinking in for days...)
PROOF:
1. Lily was the only one who was kind to Snape and stood up for him in Snape's school days. She didn't laugh when the Marauders tortured him. And even as much as he might have resented this and been embarrassed by it, he was bound to feel some sort of gratitude that could eaisly have grown. It's not unheard of.
2. Snape makes countless insults about James, but not ONCE does he insult Lily. Not ONCE. True, in the past he called her a "mudblood," but in the situation he was in (being tormented by James and Sirius and all), who can blame him?
3. Harry's green eyes are mentioned over and over and OVER. Obviously they're important. JRK has said that they will play an important part in the 7th book. Could it be that seeing these eyes will remind Snape of Lily and keep him from harming Harry? And by harming I mean REALLY harming and killing.
4. JKR says that we will learn something huge about Lily in HP7. This love thing could be it.
5. The fact that Lily was a whiz at potions is mentioned over and over and OVER in HP6. Snape was OBVIOUSLY brilliant at potions. (his text-book, the fact that he was able to make all those difficult potions, etc.) Somehow, this seems like more than a coincidence. Maybe Snape helped her, maybe they were just both really good at it... but this is a definite link between them.
6. JKR has said that Snape would not fall in love. I think this Lily/James thing could be why.
7. Dumbledore seemed to think that Snape's remorse over Lily and James's deaths was enough of a reason for him to turn. Lupin for one is shocked by this, because why would Snape have cared about James's death? He hated James. Harry mentions his mother and the "Mudblood" comment, but he's only 16 and hating Snape at the moment. He could easily be wrong. Plus, if Dumbledore was in any way aware of this love, he would have been that much keener on believing Snape.
8. JKR is making love a HUGE part of her series.
WHY NOT: Well, it does seem somewhat cliche, but then again, so does Harry/Ginny and Tonks/Lupin. JKR still makes these work. This one could easily work. Also, the parallels between Snape and Voldemort. Voldemort was never able to love. But Dumbledore was always able to sense this about him. If Snape were this bad, I have a feeling that Dumbledore might have had an inkling.
Going along with this, I've seen theories on a "friendship" between the two of them and that could work too. I sort of prefer it.
Now, the Actual Ending Musings
SNAPE EVIL VS. SNAPE GOOD
SNAPE EVIL: Dumbledore was asking Snape to save him, not kill him, and Snape was always on Voldemort's side.
PROOF:
1. The scene is written in such a way that Snape looks evil.
2. Afterwards, Snape acts like an evil man, especially when he talks to Harry about how cowardly James was ganging up on him with his friends.
3. Book 3, POA. Wouldn't Snape have known that Peter had been the true secret-keeper, being a Death-Eater at that time? Did he really hate Sirius THAT much, that he would let the OBVIOUSLY innocent man go to Azkaban? And even if he would have, wouldn't he have at LEAST told Dumbledore this VERY important fact about Peter? (POSSIBLE EXPLANATION: He thought Peter was dead and gone with Lily and James. Why would it make a difference anymore? Or maybe he just wasn't enough "in the know" to know.)
4. The Unbreakable Vow. Why would he make it if he wasn't evil and able to kill Dumbledore? (POSSIBLE EXPLANATION: After hearing what Voldemort had told Draco to do, he'd gone straight to Dumbledore. Dumbledore and he had discussed this situation thoroughly and decided what Snape would have to do if the situation ever arose.)
5. Harry has always suspected him.
6. Snape is powerful at Occulmency and Legillimency. He could easily have hoodwinked Dumbledore.
7. Snape's reasons to Bellatrix make sense.
8. Snape says the information he gave Voldemort led to the murders of Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black. For the former, I canNOT see Dumbledore willing to sacrifice someone just so that Voldemort might trust Snape some more. And since word of what Snape tells Bella would leak back to Voldemort, he would not be lying about this. As for the Sirius thing... well, it makes sense.
9. The parallels between Snape and Voldemort.
10. Snape's conversation/argument with Draco. Harry says Snape did NOT sound like he was acting.
11. JKR has told us to keep our eye on Snape.
12. This is further proof of how emotion can blind Dumbledore and cause him to make mistakes, and JKR has pointed this fault of his out a lot lately (Dumbledore blatantly says it, also ending of HP5). It also makes Dumbledore seem more human.
13. Things are not always what they seem, and JKR loves using this. Also, this would make an awesome plot twist, just the kind JKR would use.
14. In the end of Book 5, he gets the Order members. However, this could also be construed in a "Snape is good" way.
15. The Occlumency lessons. Snape could have informed Voldemort and this could have been how Voldemort learned how to be able to use this against Harry. However, this can also be construed as Snape being good when viewed from another perspective.
16. When Harry first sees Snape, his scar hurts.
SNAPE GOOD: Dumbledore was really asking Snape to kill him, not to save him. Snape was on Dumbledore's side.
PROOF:
1. THE BIG ONE: Dumbledore's character. Would he beg Snape to save his life under those circumstances? There are 4 Death Eaters in the room, Draco (the student Dumbledore wants to save so very badly), Harry, and Snape. Would he really beg Snape to turn on 4 Death Eaters (which would put Snape's life at great risk and would also put Draco in danger and the crossfire). Besides, in the state he's in with a crippled hand, his old age, his reflexes down, and the potion, in his mind, his life is not worth as much as others' lives. Also, according to this theory, Dumbledore would know about the Vow. To NOT kill him would be to essentially kill himself. Plus, Snape also knows Occlumency and would be able to read this thought from Dumbledore's mind.
2. Snape is powerful at Occulmency and Legillimency. He could easily have hoodwinked Voldemort.
3. The fight between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid tells Harry about. And I quote, "'...Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he--Snape--didn' wan' ter do it anymore....Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it." (HP6, Elf Tails, p. 405-406 US hardcover edition) If Snape was evil, wouldn't he be trying to get goody-goody to Dumbledore? This does not sound like it's part of the next bit Hagrid says about the Slytherin investigation. It sounds removed, and it's somewhat written that way. It sounds like they're talking about Snape killing Dumbledore.
4. It would mean Dumbledore was always right about him, and we're used to Dumbledore being right.
5. Things are not always what they seem, and JKR loves using this.
6. "'Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!'" (HP6, Flight of the Prince, p. 605 US hardcover edition) True, this could be a taunt, but this could also be Snape trying to make Harry shapen up so that he'll be able to defeat Voldemort.
7. Snape has hatred and revulsion on his face as he kills Dumbledore. Harry felt the same feelings towards himself when feeding Dumbledore the potion. Both were hurting Dumbledore at his request.
8. In the end of Book 5, he gets the Order members. However, this could also be construed in a "Snape is evil" way.
9. The Occlumency lessons by Snape. Wouldn't Snape have told Voldemort about these? Harry was still able to read a lot of stuff that it wouldn't seem Voldemort would want read after these had already started. However, this could also be how Voldemort figures out Harry can read his thoughts and can be proof of Snape being evil.
10. All of Bellatrix's doubts, all that which Snape had to explain away.
11. "'...And there are potions without antidotes..." (HP6 US hardcover, Snape Victorious, page 166). This is something Hermione says while she, Harry, and Ron are discussing Dumbledore's crippled hand. Even though it fits in with the conversation, we all know JKR likes to do these little foreshadow-ish details. This could easily foreshadow the potion Dumbledore drank, and if there truly were no antidote, then it would make sense that he would be asking Snape to kill him. Also, digging a little deeper, this quote IS found in the chapter called "Snape Victorious," so there's something to further this point.
12. (Thank Ash for this one) Snape has a chance to kill Flitwick, Hermione, and Luna. Instead, he only Stupefies Flitwick and leaves the other two perfectly okay. I really doubt that Snape would care about a body count if he were really evil, and it would have been easier then and in the long run to just kill Flitwick, possibly the other two girls as well. So what's the deal there if he's NOT good?
I'm tired so I'm stopping now. x_X I might put more up later... So, what do you guys think on this topic?
MY THEORY: Snape was in love with Lily Potter. (Just think about it... don't shoot me down right off. Give it a while to sink in. I've had this whole Snape good/evil thing sinking in for days...)
PROOF:
1. Lily was the only one who was kind to Snape and stood up for him in Snape's school days. She didn't laugh when the Marauders tortured him. And even as much as he might have resented this and been embarrassed by it, he was bound to feel some sort of gratitude that could eaisly have grown. It's not unheard of.
2. Snape makes countless insults about James, but not ONCE does he insult Lily. Not ONCE. True, in the past he called her a "mudblood," but in the situation he was in (being tormented by James and Sirius and all), who can blame him?
3. Harry's green eyes are mentioned over and over and OVER. Obviously they're important. JRK has said that they will play an important part in the 7th book. Could it be that seeing these eyes will remind Snape of Lily and keep him from harming Harry? And by harming I mean REALLY harming and killing.
4. JKR says that we will learn something huge about Lily in HP7. This love thing could be it.
5. The fact that Lily was a whiz at potions is mentioned over and over and OVER in HP6. Snape was OBVIOUSLY brilliant at potions. (his text-book, the fact that he was able to make all those difficult potions, etc.) Somehow, this seems like more than a coincidence. Maybe Snape helped her, maybe they were just both really good at it... but this is a definite link between them.
6. JKR has said that Snape would not fall in love. I think this Lily/James thing could be why.
7. Dumbledore seemed to think that Snape's remorse over Lily and James's deaths was enough of a reason for him to turn. Lupin for one is shocked by this, because why would Snape have cared about James's death? He hated James. Harry mentions his mother and the "Mudblood" comment, but he's only 16 and hating Snape at the moment. He could easily be wrong. Plus, if Dumbledore was in any way aware of this love, he would have been that much keener on believing Snape.
8. JKR is making love a HUGE part of her series.
WHY NOT: Well, it does seem somewhat cliche, but then again, so does Harry/Ginny and Tonks/Lupin. JKR still makes these work. This one could easily work. Also, the parallels between Snape and Voldemort. Voldemort was never able to love. But Dumbledore was always able to sense this about him. If Snape were this bad, I have a feeling that Dumbledore might have had an inkling.
Going along with this, I've seen theories on a "friendship" between the two of them and that could work too. I sort of prefer it.
Now, the Actual Ending Musings
SNAPE EVIL VS. SNAPE GOOD
SNAPE EVIL: Dumbledore was asking Snape to save him, not kill him, and Snape was always on Voldemort's side.
PROOF:
1. The scene is written in such a way that Snape looks evil.
2. Afterwards, Snape acts like an evil man, especially when he talks to Harry about how cowardly James was ganging up on him with his friends.
3. Book 3, POA. Wouldn't Snape have known that Peter had been the true secret-keeper, being a Death-Eater at that time? Did he really hate Sirius THAT much, that he would let the OBVIOUSLY innocent man go to Azkaban? And even if he would have, wouldn't he have at LEAST told Dumbledore this VERY important fact about Peter? (POSSIBLE EXPLANATION: He thought Peter was dead and gone with Lily and James. Why would it make a difference anymore? Or maybe he just wasn't enough "in the know" to know.)
4. The Unbreakable Vow. Why would he make it if he wasn't evil and able to kill Dumbledore? (POSSIBLE EXPLANATION: After hearing what Voldemort had told Draco to do, he'd gone straight to Dumbledore. Dumbledore and he had discussed this situation thoroughly and decided what Snape would have to do if the situation ever arose.)
5. Harry has always suspected him.
6. Snape is powerful at Occulmency and Legillimency. He could easily have hoodwinked Dumbledore.
7. Snape's reasons to Bellatrix make sense.
8. Snape says the information he gave Voldemort led to the murders of Emmeline Vance and Sirius Black. For the former, I canNOT see Dumbledore willing to sacrifice someone just so that Voldemort might trust Snape some more. And since word of what Snape tells Bella would leak back to Voldemort, he would not be lying about this. As for the Sirius thing... well, it makes sense.
9. The parallels between Snape and Voldemort.
10. Snape's conversation/argument with Draco. Harry says Snape did NOT sound like he was acting.
11. JKR has told us to keep our eye on Snape.
12. This is further proof of how emotion can blind Dumbledore and cause him to make mistakes, and JKR has pointed this fault of his out a lot lately (Dumbledore blatantly says it, also ending of HP5). It also makes Dumbledore seem more human.
13. Things are not always what they seem, and JKR loves using this. Also, this would make an awesome plot twist, just the kind JKR would use.
14. In the end of Book 5, he gets the Order members. However, this could also be construed in a "Snape is good" way.
15. The Occlumency lessons. Snape could have informed Voldemort and this could have been how Voldemort learned how to be able to use this against Harry. However, this can also be construed as Snape being good when viewed from another perspective.
16. When Harry first sees Snape, his scar hurts.
SNAPE GOOD: Dumbledore was really asking Snape to kill him, not to save him. Snape was on Dumbledore's side.
PROOF:
1. THE BIG ONE: Dumbledore's character. Would he beg Snape to save his life under those circumstances? There are 4 Death Eaters in the room, Draco (the student Dumbledore wants to save so very badly), Harry, and Snape. Would he really beg Snape to turn on 4 Death Eaters (which would put Snape's life at great risk and would also put Draco in danger and the crossfire). Besides, in the state he's in with a crippled hand, his old age, his reflexes down, and the potion, in his mind, his life is not worth as much as others' lives. Also, according to this theory, Dumbledore would know about the Vow. To NOT kill him would be to essentially kill himself. Plus, Snape also knows Occlumency and would be able to read this thought from Dumbledore's mind.
2. Snape is powerful at Occulmency and Legillimency. He could easily have hoodwinked Voldemort.
3. The fight between Dumbledore and Snape that Hagrid tells Harry about. And I quote, "'...Snape sayin' Dumbledore took too much fer granted an' maybe he--Snape--didn' wan' ter do it anymore....Dumbledore told him flat out he'd agreed ter do it an' that was all there was to it." (HP6, Elf Tails, p. 405-406 US hardcover edition) If Snape was evil, wouldn't he be trying to get goody-goody to Dumbledore? This does not sound like it's part of the next bit Hagrid says about the Slytherin investigation. It sounds removed, and it's somewhat written that way. It sounds like they're talking about Snape killing Dumbledore.
4. It would mean Dumbledore was always right about him, and we're used to Dumbledore being right.
5. Things are not always what they seem, and JKR loves using this.
6. "'Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!'" (HP6, Flight of the Prince, p. 605 US hardcover edition) True, this could be a taunt, but this could also be Snape trying to make Harry shapen up so that he'll be able to defeat Voldemort.
7. Snape has hatred and revulsion on his face as he kills Dumbledore. Harry felt the same feelings towards himself when feeding Dumbledore the potion. Both were hurting Dumbledore at his request.
8. In the end of Book 5, he gets the Order members. However, this could also be construed in a "Snape is evil" way.
9. The Occlumency lessons by Snape. Wouldn't Snape have told Voldemort about these? Harry was still able to read a lot of stuff that it wouldn't seem Voldemort would want read after these had already started. However, this could also be how Voldemort figures out Harry can read his thoughts and can be proof of Snape being evil.
10. All of Bellatrix's doubts, all that which Snape had to explain away.
11. "'...And there are potions without antidotes..." (HP6 US hardcover, Snape Victorious, page 166). This is something Hermione says while she, Harry, and Ron are discussing Dumbledore's crippled hand. Even though it fits in with the conversation, we all know JKR likes to do these little foreshadow-ish details. This could easily foreshadow the potion Dumbledore drank, and if there truly were no antidote, then it would make sense that he would be asking Snape to kill him. Also, digging a little deeper, this quote IS found in the chapter called "Snape Victorious," so there's something to further this point.
12. (Thank Ash for this one) Snape has a chance to kill Flitwick, Hermione, and Luna. Instead, he only Stupefies Flitwick and leaves the other two perfectly okay. I really doubt that Snape would care about a body count if he were really evil, and it would have been easier then and in the long run to just kill Flitwick, possibly the other two girls as well. So what's the deal there if he's NOT good?
I'm tired so I'm stopping now. x_X I might put more up later... So, what do you guys think on this topic?